Electric Dreams

An Excerpt From The Lucid Dream Exchange
Lucy Gillis, Editor

An Interview with

Robert Waggoner

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Waggoner, Robert (2007June). Dreamspeak: An Interview with pasQuale.
(An Excerpt From The Lucid Dream Exchange, Lucy Gillis, Editor.) Electric Dreams 14(6).

Dutch lucid dreamer, pasQuale, has developed a deep passion and interest for lucid dreaming, as evidenced by her popular website:


There, she and many others help and encourage new and growing lucid dreamers with tips, techniques and ideas. A lucid dreamer for more than 10 years now, the LDE welcomes pasQuale.

Robert: When did you first learn about conscious dreaming or lucid dreaming?

pasQuale: I first learned it when I was a student (about 13 years ago). A friend in school told me about the possibility to control your dreams. She lent me the book, Creative Dreaming, by Patricia Garfield. From that I learned how to dream lucidly. I had my first lucid dream before I had finished the book. I was so exited about lucid dreaming that I wanted to tell the world about it. Everybody should know about this. Therefore, from then on, all my school projects were about lucid dreaming. I created a concept and a demo version for a lucid dreaming game for children, and in my final year I wrote my end thesis about lucid dreaming and made a website about it. That website is now known as ld4all.com.

Robert: Can you recall your first lucid dream experience? Please, tell us about that.

pasQuale: Sadly no. I only remember it was when I was reading Creative Dreaming that sparked my first lucid dream, and it was one that had to do with defeating enemies, I think. Unfortunately I can't find my earliest dream records. The first dream in my hand written dream diary is dated Feb. 26, 1994 and at the end I mention: "... but already I had come to the conclusion I was dreaming and I woke up."

Robert: What about your early lucid experiences did you find interesting?

pasQuale: Reading back in my old dream journals, I see I was busy with interpreting a lot, and when I was lucid I would do a lot to save my memory of the dream, (in the dream I would sketch the environment or try to take pictures), so I could use them for my school projects.

The incredible clarity and detail of my lucid dreams was a thing that also made a big impression on me. I was like a tourist, trying to save everything I experienced in my LDs.

Also, the thing that was most exiting was the incredible feeling you have when you realize that everything around you is a dream. That's why I want to teach lucid dreaming, so everyone can experience that feeling.

Robert: In the beginning, what methods did you use to bring conscious awareness into the dream state? Has that changed over the years?

pasQuale: Back then, I was also interested in past life regression and reincarnation. I had done a workshop where we would be hypnotized and try to visit a past life. I learned self-hypnosis in this way and I had a kind of self hypnosis induction technique for lucid dreaming; I would do a relaxation exercise and then tell myself that I would be aware that I was dreaming.

Over the years it has changed. I started to do yoga, and incorporated a yoga relaxation exercise, which induced another kind of dream, where I would be able to roll out of my bed, conscious, knowing I was dreaming. I then either flew out the window or stepped through the mirror in my bedroom to see where I would end up.

Later I didn't really do anything to become lucid, it happened spontaneously.

Lately, I'm experimenting with different methods, and now I'm trying dream yoga exercises, to see how that works.

Robert: As you had more lucid dreams, were there any lucid dreams that made a deep impression on you? Tell us about them.

pasQuale: Yes, a lot. I've had so many incredible lucid experiences. The ones that stay in my mind are the most clear, vivid lucid dreams.

Like one where I found myself on a cobblestoned street, outside a church. The stained glass windows spread their colors in front of me and it was so incredibly real. I slowly woke up from this and the waking reality seemed less real than the dream I just woke up from.

Another special lucid dream is one in which I met my spirit guide for the first time. I tell about that dream on my site too:

I have just gotten lucid and then remember my intent of meeting my spirit guide. I call: "Do I have a guide? Can I see you?". . .

I walk out into the garden, to the lawn, in the meantime asking: "Can I see you? I would really like to see you."

Then I see somebody. She wears a kind of jute orange dress. She has blue big beaded necklaces around her neck. Her hair is short and blond. Her age is about 40 or 50? She looks Dutch.

"So you are my guide?"


"What's your name?"


I taste the name. Annette.

That was how I first met Annette. Later I called her again in a lucid dream, because I wanted very much to paint her. I saw her and I only looked, looked, and looked at her. When I woke up, I painted her. She looked different than the first time I met her.

"The Museum of Lost Memories" is another one that made a big impression on me. It originally had a place on the first drafts of my site, but later it was discarded. It now has become a LD Quest to do. (Every moon (4 weeks) I run a Lucid Quest on LD4all - an assignment for members to do in their lucid dreams - I made a Quest about uncovering lost memories) but I still feel there is more to this dream:

. . .Then I'm on a horse and I ride across the hill. Then I see four castles. WOW! Castles in the mist. One of concrete, one of gold, one of silver and one of glass.

I go inside one of them. "The Museum of Lost Memories". There I pick up a strange object. It seems to be made of blue stone. It has a little orb on it and next to it a smaller hole.

I go inside. You have to stand against the wired fence, then it will swoosh you right inside.

I'd like to see my lost memories. I enter a very busy space with lots of people. At the first display cabinet a little boy plays a game with silver balls. I pay attention, I don't understand how he does it. There are also colored cards, but I can't remember those.

I want to have a pen and paper to draw all these things, so I don't forget them! I say: "In my pocket I have a pen" - and suddenly, there I have a pen.

In my other pocket is paper. Yes, a small notebook. I quickly sketch all those things, the castle, etc.

I walk through to the end. There is a man who tells me I'm not allowed in there. I obey him. I'm outside again. I wish myself money so I can buy things. There, on the street is a pouch with money. A little like the Wild West.

I enter a 'store'. Behind the counter is a lady in a tight dress. What do you wish?

She shows me a map of the city. It has brightly colored buildings on it. Red, blue, purple, green, with thick black outlines.

After this I either wake up or can't remember.

Another one is also an incredible clear and vivid dream, so clear that I wanted to capture the image I saw when I woke up. In that dream I had stepped through my mirror and ended up in a little room. I stepped out of the window and then flew in an incredibly vivid landscape. At the end there was a huge pirate boat and all the little details were amazing. From far away you could still see every little ornament on the boat. When I woke up I tried to capture it in a painting.

I use my paintings as illustrations on my site, and the pirate boat painting is in there somewhere too.

You can see some more of my dream related, and other paintings at:


If I would write down all the lucid dreams that have made an impact on me I'd fill a lot of pages. Since a few years ago, I began to keep an online dream journal on the LD4all forums, but you can only read it when you are a member. So feel free to join and check it out.

Robert: Interesting! What did you take from these lucid dream experiences? What did they come to mean to you?

pasQuale: I tend to see 'real life' more and more like a dream as well. One where other rules apply, but a dream, nonetheless. I also love to go to sleep because I know I can get lucid and can do anything I want.

Also, I feel I received a lot of knowledge and insight in my lucid dreams. For example, the dream about my spirit guide made me able to connect to her in real life as well. She still sometimes shows up in my dreams too. For me, the most vivid lucid dreams really feel like being in a different world.

Just the other day I had again this feeling very clear, while in my dream I said to myself: "I will enjoy this while this lasts, I'll wake up soon and then I'll be on that dull earth again."

Robert: It seems that you have tried various experiments when lucid in the dream state, like talking to a nightmarish figure (the German soldier), transforming into an animal, and stepping through a mirror. Please describe the lucid dreams and tell us what happened and your reaction.

pasQuale: Oh yes, I love to experiment in my lucid dreams. Once, I had a dream in which:

A German soldier from WWII was coming after me to make me prisoner or something. I ran down a bridge and hid myself in a corner. Then I realized I was dreaming.

"I want to know who that is chasing after me, and why he's doing it," I said to myself. I yelled: "Here I am! Come and catch me!" There he came. But the mean-looking soldier had transformed into a small childlike woman. I asked: "Who are you?"

She replied: "I'm your fear for the unknown."

This was a very emotional moment in the dream and crying, I hugged her. I realized that my "fear for the unknown" had made me "run away" in real life situations.

In other experiments, I've tried becoming animals. I've transformed into several animals, and what's most profound is that you experience the animal's senses, and it always comes with a realization. Like laying an egg while being a bird:

Tonight I changed myself into a bird. First I flew around just myself having huge wings and enjoyed it. After that I tried to change myself into a bird to see what that feels like. Sure enough, I felt my body change, felt I had a tail and a beak. The eyesight also changed, like very wide vision that came together in the middle.

Shortly after that I tried to lay an egg to see what that feels like, it was actually quite pleasurable; realization: of course it is, nature wouldn't make it un-pleasurable.

Changing into an owl I'm in a backyard of some sort. I see two beautiful owls flying. I decide I want to try and transform into an owl as well.

I want myself to be an owl; I spread my arms and they become wings. I feel the feathers on my wings and try to be in an owl's body.

I fly on silken wings. So softly through the air with no sound at all. Even though it is dark, I have no problem seeing. I swoosh through the trees in the forest.

I try to remember what owls eat. Mice and stuff. I should try to catch one. And I will probably have to hack up an owl-ball as well.

Comments: I feel I succeeded in half, because I still felt myself being human as well. But I felt smaller and that experience of flying silently through the air was wonderful.

It has made an impact, this dream, because the owls were so beautiful. It was a barn owl. I did some research and it turns out the barn owl flies indeed silently through the night, I never knew that.

Other experiments -- Stepping through a mirror used to be the first thing I did once I was lucid. I still love it, but now I'm experimenting more also with how I look in the mirror, and how it feels to travel through it. Sometimes I end up in a new dream (world), sometimes the mirror leads to a black void. Sometimes it is hard to step through, the mirror then feels like it's made of thick syrup where you have to wade through. Here is one mirror example dream:

Lucid, I think, "Now what to do... flying out of the window?" The mirror in the bedroom suddenly looks very attractive. Let's try and jump through that.

It bulges a bit; it's not easy to walk through. I succeed in jumping through. I keep jumping through mirrors. Eventually I end up in a store. Then again, I keep jumping through mirrors. They now all lead to the same bedroom, but every time it is one a bit further away. They all look the same though.

Finally I'm in a room with a wooden table. A friendly female puts her arm across my shoulders and asks me what I will wear for the 25th anniversary. I try to remember what anniversary she is talking about. She lets me choose from different items of jewelry on the floor. I can't make a choice, since I don't know what anniversary she is talking about.

Robert: Like some of us, it appears that you have sought reincarnation information in lucid dreams. Any luck?

pasQuale: Yes, I have had several dreams on this. For example this one: Babylon, 56,000 BC.

I'm in the passenger's seat and I remember my request for a guidance dream. I know this is it. To my left, the driver, is a guide. He/she feels familiar. I can't remember who it is, or what he/she looked like, only the energy, white yellowish golden, and very friendly and loving energy with a bit of humour.

The guide asks me where I want to go. I say: "Please take me to my past and my future"

"Why do you want that?"

"So I can understand more about myself"

"OK, where do you want to go first?"

"Please take me to my past"


He drives, the road flashes by, we are on a highway in broad sunshine. The dream takes the form of a very well cut American action movie -- with complimentary music in the background. We pass a road sign: "Babylon 56,000 BC", and this is it. We are now in Babylon, 56,000 BC. I'm amazed that Babylon existed at that point, and that I apparently have a past there.

The dream is now like a movie. I'm a watcher and I wonder when I get to see who/what I was back then.

It is a mountainous area, the ground is brown, it reminds me of Hannibal's journey through the Alps, but that wasn't this long ago was it? -- I see sheep. They are very white and 'fluffy'. Black thin legs. It is like I can communicate with them. There is a little lamb somewhere too.

Then I see two old people, a man and a woman. They wear colorful outfits (reminds me a bit of Tibetan colorful clothes, but it is not the same). They are eating soup and talking to each other. I am offered soup as well, I now have the impression I'm a young girl. But I'm also myself. The soup is in a deep bowl and the spoon is green. It looks a bit like the Chinese porcelain spoons, only it is deeper and from another material. I admire it. I have to try several times before I can properly eat from it. The soup is nice and hot and there is some kind of butter in it I know.

All this time I feel the presence of the guide. I also know this dream is about to end and I'm sad, because it was just getting interesting.

And yes, I wake up, feeling happy and slightly disappointed at the same time.

Robert: Mutual dreams seem to be a fairly rare experience, and mutual lucid dreams even rarer. Have you experienced any of these?

pasQuale: I have tried. I'm actually on a quest to have a mutual lucid dream with an online friend in Australia. So far no luck. I have come close on occasions but I have never had a true proven shared dream. For example, I dream of information of a person that I didn't know, and when telling the dream proved to be right. For example, I dreamt of meeting someone I know only online, from LD4all, and in the dream he told me the name of his girlfriend. I didn't know that name in real life. I asked him in waking life, and it turned out to be the right name.

Other people encounter me a lot in their dreams too, and see things about me I haven't told them about, but I never remember those dreams.

I have come very close on two occasions, when I dreamt of the same dream location of someone else, but she hadn't seen me. And another time where we both recalled dreaming of each other, and seemed to have been in the same location, but the dream setting was very different.

I keep trying. I have even been told in a lucid dream that I have to teach about Shared Dreaming:

. . . I'm still lucid, I'm in a high place covered in the greenest grass you can imagine. Everything is extremely vivid and clear. It is beautiful. There is no sound. Silence surrounds me. I'm alone in this place.

"This is why you have to teach Shared Dreaming". A voice says, or is it a realization in my mind?

I realize that with Shared Dreaming dreamers far from each other can meet each other in this place. But I still want to experience a real shared dream before teaching about it.

Robert: Have you ever tried "surrendering to the dream" or letting the dream show you something unexpected or unknown? Or have you had other lucid dream experiences that were totally unexpected? What happened?

Well, I use my lucid dreams to show me things, for example how the design of the website should look like, or to show me paintings for inspiration. In lucid dreams, a lot of unexpected things happen, and it's one of the things I like to do too, to see what will happen when I do a certain action, (like questioning the people in my dream, to see what they will reply), or to reach into my pockets and see what comes out, to look at the sky and see what it looks like, etc. Stepping through a mirror also leads to unexpected places since you don't know what to expect behind it. I'm often in a very exploring state of mind when I'm fully lucid.

Here's an example of when I decided to follow the dream once I was lucid:

While I'm sitting on the toilet, 7 of 9 (From Star Trek) comes to ask me something. She wears a Star Trek uniform. I do a reality check and realize I'm dreaming.

I decide to follow the dream. "What do you want me to show?", I ask her. She walks to a door, it is closed. A little heart is drawn on it. The door is white/yellowish.

I ask her something that will help me remember this dream and keep me lucid.

She gives me a smaller version of my wedding ring, it fits on my left pinky.

I try fitting it on my right hand, but it will only fit on my left. I check if I can see the rings I got in earlier dreams (on my right hand) but my right hand is empty.

I follow her and ask where we are. A beautiful view is outside. The colors are extremely vibrant and clear. I see a lot of small houses with different kind of rooftops. It feels old. In the front is a pasture where I see a lot of animals. The only ones I recall are 2 very bright white sheep and two marvelous grey wolves.

I ask her where this is. She says it is England. "I don't believe you, " I respond, "I have never seen two wolves like that, and certainly not so close to two sheep."

We are outside. I'm now with two young girls as well. We go to a big gate. Everybody gets pottery, pots to carry. They are now outside and carry a lot of those pots on their back. A rope is strapped around their head to carry it.

The gate closes in front of the Star Trek character 7 and me and we wait while more pottery is being thrown down. Some of it hasn't been baked right and falls in pieces. Then we can enter as well.

The girls take me to the place where the plates are being painted. It is a wooden building, kind of a workshop. A sand path leads toward it. There are more buildings like that, and more people working.

I slightly lose lucidity, but regain it after doing another reality check.

I see the plates. I tell them I'll make them a design. Yes! I will make a Plate of Dreams! I'm really enthusiastic about it. Some of the painters look at me disapprovingly, others are as exited as me.

Oh, I probably have to draw a circle first. I have a square sheet of white paper in front of me. Some of the girls help me make and cut out the circle.

It isn't really round but no one seems to care. I write "Plate of Dreams" at the top. All the other designers make also 'plate of something's (can't remember what they did), and the title should be written on the top. . .

I'm now holding the drawn plate (I can't recall actually drawing it), and look at it. Everybody is enthusiastic about my design. It is very intricate.

It is in a comic book style. A lot is happening, and it was funny as well.

Robert: Altogether, how do these lucid dreams make you question the nature of reality?

Well, I have had LD's that were more real than reality and yet I knew I was dreaming. I touched objects and wondered how things could be so real. I'm getting more and more to the core feeling that reality like we perceive it, is like a dream.

A quote from an extremely vivid lucid dream:

"I look around the place. It looks so real. I have trouble getting my mind around the idea that this is all created by me. I wonder if it works like this in reality too."

Robert: How about on your website? Have there been lucid dreams that have surprised you, or shocked you?

It surprises me that people have so many ideas for what they do in their lucid dreams and that's very inspiring to read. There is a special section for members to keep their Dream journals and a lot of lucid dreams have been written during the years.

Also you notice problems people have, like ending up in a black void, new ways to test your reality - and the various ways people fly for example. I barely have time to read all the inspiring dreams, and there are really quite a lot to read.

Robert: Over the years, you have built quite a website for lucid dreamers at (http://www.ld4all.com/) What prompted you to begin the website? How is it going?

pasQuale: Well, as I said in the first question, it started out as a school project. At that time, I had just discovered lucid dreaming and I wanted to tell everybody how cool it is and how to do it.

Over the years it has changed in appearance and has had more content added, and the forum. I have always used my lucid dreams as inspiration and guidance on how to design the site. The LD4all logo appeared to me in a very clear lucid dream.

The site is still growing and evolving. The forum has grown to be a very close and friendly community. Many people have had their first lucid dream because of LD4all.

Robert: At your website, are there points that you are trying to get across to other lucid dreamers? Or does the on-going discussion and conversation, the collective knowledge, provide the education?

pasQuale: The forum serves a lot as a support group for lucid dreamers. People give each other tips, motivate each other, and people keep their dream diaries on the site.

Techniques are developed and tried out, experiments conducted. I started the forum because I got a lot of emails and it became simply too much to reply to all the questions so I decided that people could help each other, so I created the forum for that. It has grown to be a very close community.

A lot of lucid dreamers find it very nice that they can talk about lucid dreaming with someone else and they are not the only one. Many people can't talk about their lucid dreams in their real life, people think they are crazy. People are pleasantly surprised when they find a large group of people who can lucid dream too.

Robert: For those who have never been to your website, what kinds of issues come up in the discussion about lucid dreaming? Tell us about the range of issues you see there.

pasQuale: Well, about everything you can imagine, really. The forum exists now for over 7 years and has around 10,000 members worldwide. A large part is of course the "help me get lucid" part. People help and support each other. New people come with questions, and experienced lucid dreamers answer them.

It is really a very friendly and supportive community. Then people keep their dream journals on the site, and members encourage each other and congratulate each other when someone has a lucid dream. Another part is the lab, where we conduct our own experiments.

Robert: What kind of lucid dream experiments could move forward the understanding of the potentials of the dream state and lucid dreaming? What would you like to see?

pasQuale: There are a lot of stories going around that certain foods increase dream recall and could aid in having a lucid dream. I'd like real scientific research on that, so that you could actually know what kind of food/herbs are really helpful in this.

Another thing I would like to see is developing new ways to communicate with the lucid dreamer, (besides eye movement) and maybe a way to communicate to the lucid dreamer while he's dreaming and the dreamer can communicate back. I think that would be extremely interesting to see a real communication between a lucid dreamer and the real world.

The ultimate thing would of course be a device where you could see on a screen what someone else is dreaming, and somehow record it so you can watch it again.

Robert: Thanks for your observations into lucid dreaming. Any parting thoughts?

pasQuale:I'm really exited to see how lucid dreaming is gaining popularity.

Back when I started my first site, there were only 3 or 4 other websites about lucid dreaming on the net. Now a lot of lucid dreaming related sites have popped up everywhere, and a lot of people have learned to lucid dream because of those. I hope to see one day that lucid dreaming is common knowledge and is taught about in schools.

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